Managing Multiple Sclerosis with Nutrition

Transcript:

DARLENE: So welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition. I'm Darlene Kvist, Licensed Nutritionist and Certified Nutrition Specialist. Joining me today as our co-host is Lea Wetzell. She's also a Licensed Nutritionist, a Certified Nutrition Specialist, and a mama of who?

LEA: Of Oliver.

DARLENE: Of Oliver; what a great name he has.

LEA: Age three.

DARLENE: Age three. So today we're going to discuss autoimmune conditions, especially that autoimmune condition called MS.

LEA: Yep.

DARLENE: So, you know, in the past shows like in on May 12th, we talked about this before and we called it Nutrition Support for Symptoms of MS.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: And we interviewed Tina Beehler.

LEA: She's got a great story.

DARLENE: She does. And she used nutrition to put her MS into remission.

LEA: That's, yeah.

DARLENE: And we've had a few other people that have used, you know, nutrition and their MS has gone into actually remission.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: So that was a great show.

LEA: It was a great show.

DARLENE: And Tina has been really in remission. I believe it's been for eight years now.

LEA: That’s amazing.

DARLENE: And, you know, we understand there are many different degrees of MS and what might work for one might not work for another person. So as nutritionists, we do understand that certain foods and that's probably a new thought for a lot of people, can and often put stress on the body and on that healing process.

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Foods to avoid for MS prevention and treatment

 

LEA: Exactly. Well, hi Dar. It's great to be here with you today. It’s always a good time. Yeah. And I want to tell you about two foods, you know, that I would say for best results to get rid of are sugar and trans fats.

DARLENE: So Leah, when you say sugar and trans fats, what are people looking for?

LEA: Well, you know, I think it's important to know that a lot of that is hidden in other foods. So it could be in crackers.

DARLENE: Yes, a lot of crackers.

LEA: Right; could be in muffins.

DARLENE: Oh, definitely. That coffee, not all coffee house muffins, but a lot of them.

LEA: Definitely. Or just even a grocery store muffin.

DARLENE: Exactly. Yep. Or breads even you could find.

DARLENE: Oh, a lot of breads.

LEA: Yes. Not good.

DARLENE: So, and what are they looking for?

LEA: On the labels to find out if, if something has a trans fat you're looking for that says hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated.

DARLENE: Oil; okay. And then also maybe high fructose corn syrup.

LEA: Yeah. That's right. Yep.

DARLENE: So two other foods that I often encourage people to avoid during that healing process are really common foods like grains, which is a surprise for a lot of people and even dairy products. And I think you can relate to the dairy products too. I can’t.

LEA: And grains too.

DARLENE: And grains too; because it causes…

LEA: For me, my autoimmune is asthma. And so by cutting those out, my asthma got a lot better; actually went away.

DARLENE: So I think we understand that MS a serious condition.

LEA: Very serious.

DARLENE: And we as nutritionists know avoiding certain foods seem to help many.

LEA: Right. So what can you eat? Most meats and fish and good fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter, and avocados are wonderful.

DARLENE: Wonderful. Wonderful. Yes. But avoid any products that are bad fats. And those, and Lea has already said this. It's like partially hydrogenated oil.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: You know, these fats don't produce, they don't support the production of that myelin sheath that's around your nerves. And we're going to talk more about that.

LEA: Later. Yep. Yeah. So partially hydrogenated soybean oil is really bad and also the cottonseed version to the cottonseed oil is really bad oil. So you need to check your labels and you need to avoid these fats.

DARLENE: So every time you think about, you know, buying something, and I see this at this store. A lot of people are really looking at labels now. And they're saying, no, I'm not going to buy that if it's got partially hydrogenated soybean oil or cottonseed oil. They just stay away from it.

LEA: Right.

Healing food ideas

 

DARLENE: And of course we say eating a variety of vegetables, vegetables, vegetables, vegetables. And again, we think organic If possible.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: They are full of nutrients. And frankly, we like to keep it simple. So, you know, last night.

LEA: Yeah. What'd you have?

DARLENE: I had, you know, those little broccoli things. It was baby broccolis.

LEA: I love those. They're good.

DARLENE: And then I grilled some wild caught salmon.

LEA: Oh, wow.

DARLENE: I think that meal took me maybe five minutes.

LEA: Nice.

DARLENE: And it was perfect. I mean, it was perfectly balanced. And of course I put some butter on the broccoli.

LEA: Of course.

DARLENE: And a little olive oil on the fish and it was perfect.

LEA: Nice.

DARLENE: But it was simple.

LEA: Exactly. It's really helpful to keep things as simple as you can.

DARLENE: Especially when you have a chronic illness.

LEA: Exactly. That's what I was going to say. We all know when people have chronic illnesses that it's, it's really important to keep your food simple.

DARLENE: But we also know that because food is key to recovery, their eating and food choices need to take a priority.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: And a personal cook would be really nice if possible. And, you know, I think sometimes that's even a new thought. A lot of people can afford to have a personal cook, but they have never thought about it.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: But you can give them recipe and say, this is what I want and they can make it for you. And it's easy. So whatever works for people.

LEA: Exactly. Yep. And as nutritionists, we know that cereal and skim milk for breakfast is easy.

DARLENE: But it's not healing.

LEA: That's right.

DARLENE: So my standard is two eggs, spinach sautéed in olive oil or coconut oil because it's healing and it's really delicious. And I don't know if you know this, but my secret weapon for constipation is sautéed spinach.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: And it works fantastic.

LEA: Yeah. That's really great. That's great. You know, and thinking about lunch, you know, a sub sandwich is easy but not healing.

DARLENE: But if you take that same concept and make it into a big salad with a variety of vegetables, and a big chunk of wild caught salmon, and great olive oil dressing, it's healing.

LEA: That's right. And a big plate of pasta for dinner, maybe it's easy, but not, it's so inflammatory so it's not good.

DARLENE: Like the macaroni and cheese is easy.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: So a better meal would be ground, a ground beef patty, which I do quite often, but it's you know, it's a grass fed beef patty, and a side of green beans and a half of sweet potato. And of course, you're going to use either olive oil or butter on the sweet potato.

LEA: Correct.

DARLENE: And it's got a lot of great nutrients.

LEA: That's right. That's right. And lots of water to drink. It's very important to keep hydrated. So no soda and no juice. And Dar, I think one of the most healing things, you know, that you could consume is bone broth, which I just made.

DARLENE: You make bone broth a lot.

LEA: I do almost every week.

DARLENE: You know, it's so popular now. I’ve seen articles. I've heard it on the radio. Lea, you have a really easy way to make bone broth because my way takes a long time.

LEA: Well, I mean, it does take some time in the cooking process, but I really keep it simple. I usually, in my freezer, I keep a stockpile of bones, which you can get a lot of the co-ops around the area in the freezer section. They'll have beef bones or chicken bones, or…

DARLENE: Or if people are listening and they live in Montana, they go to their butcher shops.

LEA: Exactly, exactly. And, through the week that I'm going to do a broth, I just stock pile the ends of my carrots, onions and celery, and my stems of my kale. And I just pile it up in a container in the refrigerator. And I throw that all into my Crock-Pot with the bones, usually a pound of bone. I have a large Crock-Pot that I use for it; fill it up with water, put some vinegar. I do apple cider vinegar, usually a couple of tablespoons of that.

DARLENE: Okay.

LEA: Turn it on low. Voila!

DARLENE: Wow. That's great.

LEA: So, and they usually cook it for about 12, maybe 24 hours; depends.

DARLENE: You know, when I have chronically ill people, I have them, if they can make the bone broth, because I know it's high in minerals.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: But you use it for another reason.

LEA: For me, you know, as I think it's great for just general use. I use it a lot for, as a replacement for coffee and that, you know, maybe something I want to drink a hot beverage in the afternoon.

DARLENE: Perfect.

LEA: I love it.

DARLENE: And you know, if you drink it at night, it's probably just going to help you sleep better.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: Perfect.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: So, you know, we've, we've been talking about MS. When I think about it for the last 15 years, the person that I always think about with MS is Dr. Terry Wahls.

LEA: Yeah.

DARLENE: And, I know we're going to have Terry join us in just a few minutes, but we do have to take a break first. Right?

LEA: We do, which is great. I'm really excited to have Terry on the show today for us. So, you're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. We are discussing the importance of good nutrition with autoimmune conditions such as MS. So questions about MS today, give us a call in the studio at (651) 641-1071.

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DARLENE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. If you have a chronic health problem, the question is always, “How can you eat; how can you learn to eat better? How can you eat better?” You know, some people like to work one-on-one with a Nutritional Weight and Wellness nutritionist. They meet monthly and they make changes.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: Some people like to take class series, such as the Weight and Wellness or the Nutrition for Weight Loss, and they make changes. And we have both of those classes starting in March. So if you want to sign up call 651-699-3438, or you can go online at weightandwellness.com.

Nutrition 4 Weight Loss program

And for listeners in the Blaine, Forest Lake, Stacy, Cambridge, Isanti; all those areas, Elk River, we have a new Nutrition for Weight Loss class in Blaine, starting on Tuesday night, March 8th. And that's from 6-7. And also we have a new series starting April 14th in New Richmond, Wisconsin.

DARLENE: So what we're doing is we're bringing the classes to the people.

LEA: Yeah.

DARLENE: And we really are trying to reach out and help people learn this information and make it convenient for them.

LEA: That's great.

Dr. Terry Wahls’ Experience With Managing MS

 

DARLENE: So that's one of the things. Now we get to bring on our guest. You know, I was talking before that, you know, I, everything I say, ever since I've heard about MS, maybe 15 years ago, Terry Wahls’ number and Dr. Terry Wahls’ name came up. And so we're really pleased and honored to have Dr. Terry Wahls join us today on Dishing Up Nutrition. You know, if you haven't heard of Terry Wahls, let me fill you in. Dr. Terry Wahls is a clinical professor of medicine at the University of Iowa and the director of extended care and rehab services with a veteran’s affairs Iowa City healthcare system. Wow.

LEA: Yeah.

DARLENE: I think what really makes Dr. Wahls special is she’s also a patient with secondary progressive multiple sclerosis, which is MS.

LEA: Right. Right. So, well, welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition. Dar and I met you, Dr. Terry Wahls, at the American College of Nutrition Conference last fall in November in Florida. And we really, really enjoyed your presentation.

DARLENE: And we enjoyed being able to sit around and talk to you afterwards too.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: So Dr. Wahls, thank you. And welcome. And we would love to hear, and our listeners would love to hear your story.

DR. WAHLS: Sure, sure. Well first thank you so much for coming to the college last year. I had a great time and let me quickly summarize my experience. I am a conventional doc. And, when I was diagnosed with MS, I still thought that drugs were the way to go. I knew that within 10 years of diagnosis, half of those newly diagnosed with MS will be unable to work due to severe fatigue. So the other third will have problems with walking, need a cane, walker or wheelchair.

DARLENE: Terry, just stop. You said half of people that had been diagnosed in how many years?

DR. WAHLS: Within 10.

DARLENE: Within 10 years, 50% would be so tired they couldn't work.

DR. WAHLS: Absolutely. It's the leading cause of, disability, for young people with neurologic problems.

DARLENE: Wow, and Terry, you, I'm right as far as you've had MS for how many years again?

DR. WAHLS: Well, I was diagnosed in 2000, so that would've been 16 years ago. In retrospect I had symptoms beginning in probably 1980, maybe as early as 1978.

DARLENE: And you're still working.

DR. WAHLS: Yes, and actually I worked through all of this, even though I was wheelchair dependent within three years. And, you know, when I hit the wheelchairs, when like, it was apparent that drugs were not going to stop my slide right into a bedridden and potentially demented life.

DARLENE: So what did you do?

DR. WAHLS: Well, I began reading a lot of basic science mouse studies about MS and Parkinson's and Lou Gehrig's disease, ALS, Huntington's and began using experimented on myself based on what I was reading about. So I was adding vitamins and supplements and I seemed to be slowing the speed of my decline. I also was exposed to the writings of Dr. Cordain, Loren Cordain. So I switched after 20 years of being vegetarian, back to eating meat.

But I still, I was still declining. There was no dramatic recovery. And then in 2007, I was so weak. I, I really couldn’t sit up in a regular chair anymore. I had a recliner at work where I could recline with my knees as high as my nose, or I was in bed. And I was beginning to lose my keys, my phone. And my chief of staff and I talked; it was pretty clear I was going to be having to take medical disability probably in, in the relatively near future.

And that summer I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine, and took their course on neuroprotection, which really deepened my understanding, expanded my thinking a bit more. And so I actually now had a much longer list of vitamins and supplements that I was taking. And then I had, which would be completely obvious to you ladies. And that was, you know, I should figure out where the, all these things I was taking pill form, where it was in a food supply. So of course that took a little more research, but by December I had identified what were the foods that I really wanted to be emphasizing because I had already taken out all grain, all legumes, all dairy, but so I had reorganized my diet and started this new way of a much more structured eating plan in January.

DARLENE: So you went to nutrition.

DR. WAHLS: I went to food.

DARLENE: When we say nutrition we automatically think food.

LEA: Yeah.

DARLENE: We don't think supplements.

DR. WAHLS: Yeah. Too many people think supplements.

DARLENE: That's a good catch Terry.

DR. WAHLS: Yep. So I got into food and within three months, my brain fog was gone. My severe fatigue was gone. I was beginning to walk around the hospital with a cane then without a cane. At nine months I got up on my bike and pedaled around the block. That was actually Mother's Day. You know, I'm crying, my kids are crying, and that, that was at the moment where I realized nobody knew, because with progressive MS, when you're in the secondary progressive phase, there's no more spontaneous improvements.

LEA: Right.

DR. WAHLS: My physicians had long told me that functions once lost were gone forever.

DARLENE: You proved them wrong, didn’t you?

DR. WAHLS: Yeah. So, you know, he's thrilled. Well, we get an MRI of my brain. There's no change in the lesions.

DARLENE: Right.

DR. WAHLS: But clearly my brain and spinal cord are rewiring themselves. Now, I could walk in the neighborhood, biking and, at a year I do a 20 mile bike ride.

LEA: Wow.

DR. WAHLS: And so this really changes how I'm thinking about everything; how I think about disease and health. It will change the research that I do. I begin talking to my patients about food, about the quality of their diet, their toxic exposures, their stress levels, their activity levels. And I begin teaching them how to use diet and lifestyle. Now my medical partners think like this is really strange. So they complain; have to go see the chief of staff and he and I have a long conversation. And I bring to him the 85 papers that I'm using to make it clear that what I'm doing is, is the latest science. He ultimately becomes a big champion.

DARLENE: You know, I think a lot of times Terry, it comes from the patient and they make the changes and they get better. And that's, you know, so if you can even affect one or two people, cause you ended up writing a book, didn’t you?

DR WAHLS: So I, I wrote a book, The Wahls Protocol. It’s been a huge bestseller. I also did a TED Talk, which I had last I looked at it like 2.3 or 2.4 million views where I tell my story. And I'm a big champion of feeding for your mitochondria and your cells. And that I'm sure has driven many conversations in doctor's offices. People have a neurological problem or any kind of chronic disease saying, “Well, what about that doctor?”

DARLENE: Right.

DR. WAHLS: You know, who got out of the wheelchair on her, on her bike using food?

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: So I think, I'm getting a signal from Leah that we've got to Terry, we've got to take a little break, but we want, you know, and so we go ahead, Lea.

LEA: I was going to say when we come back and they begin to enjoy a little bit more about specifically, what are the things that you're eating and what made that big difference with getting you out of that wheelchair with food? So we'd love to get in those details.

DARLENE: Right. Because listeners really want to know, not so much the science, but how did you do it?

LEA: Yeah, exactly. Yep. So you're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. If you have questions for Dr. Terry Wahls today, please give us a call in the studio at (651) 641-1071.

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DARLENE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. We're discussing multiple sclerosis, also called MS, with Dr. Terry Wahls. MS Is a disease in which the immune system eats away at the protective covering of the nerves and the nerve impulses are disrupted. So if people have questions for Terry it's 651-641-1071.

And I think, you know, Lea, as nutritionists, we know foods and diet can help many people with autoimmune symptoms. You know, we, as nutritionists can help them change their diet and keep the sugar out; because that's key; keeping the sugar out.

Nutrition Counseling

But Terry, as a medical doctor, she was able to get grants to conduct research, which is always nice because I think a lot of, not everyone, but a lot of people, they want to hear that research.

LEA: Exactly.

DARLENE: And Terry, you also recently, I believe have a new clinical trial, you got a grant for a new clinical trial comparing low fat diets maybe. I hope I'm right on this.

DR. WAHLS: Yeah. That was the first diet that was advocated by Dr. Swank for people with MS. And he had some very nice clinical results with that helping people who follow the Swank Diet. They were much more likely to still be walking and still working 10, 20, 30 years later.

DARLENE: Probably. I don't know Terry, if this is right, but I bet his diet included a lot of vegetables and may have been low fat.

DR. WAHLS: It did not. It zeroed in on a teaspoon of cod liver oil and less than a teaspoon of saturated fat in the whole day.

DARLENE: Oh my gosh. Okay.

DR. WAHLS: Then that's what he was focusing on. And that, that was the measure of were you compliant or not? And he, and he publishes some very nice results and the criticism is that it was never randomized. It was simply a patient registry, but since he followed them until they died, or 50 years, it's a very powerful information.

DARLENE: Sure.

DR. WAHLS: So we're comparing that diet and my diet and there are a lot of people who want to do dietary interventions for MS that really had been asking for this very research to happen. So, we're recruiting, and the email for my clinical coordinator is Catherine-Chenard so catherine-chenard@uiowa.edu.

What is the Wahls protocol food plan?

 

DARLENE: So Terry, when you are thinking about comparing the two different diets, the low fat versus your protocol, tell listeners how many tablespoons or teaspoons of fat that you recommend for you in your protocol basically; kind of rounded out.

DR. WAHLS: You know, I've never really thought about it that way. Because I stress you're eating vegetables, you know, six to nine cups depending on your size and gender. And then I want you to have six to 12 ounces of meat or fish, preferably grass fed, or wild caught wild fish, wild game. Then you can have clarified butter as you would like, olive oil cold, as you would like. And I encourage a teaspoon of cod liver oil every day in addition, you know, taking care of your vitamin D.

DARLENE: So, you know, I think when people are thinking as far as when I, you know, cause I've been working with clients for say 35 years or so. And I think when we say, just use, just use olive oil or just use butter or use any of these coconut oils or any of those kinds of oils, people typically use two teaspoons to a tablespoon of good fat per meal. And they don't really have to measure it. It just seems appropriate for people. And they get, you know, they get enough fat into their diet that way. So…

DR. WAHLS: I really focus on, what I want you to measure your vegetables to get enough vegetables in. And I want you to have at least six ounces of meat or fish, so we have enough protein in, and then you can have fat according to your taste, as far as I'm concerned. We just have to be careful that it's, you know, good for you fats. So animal fats or olive oil; cold olive oil. Some diets involve a lot of measuring, calorie counting, grams of this or that counting.

DARLENE: That's too complex for most people.

DR. WAHLS: That’s too hard. I just want people to eat lots of vegetables.

LEA: Yeah, platefuls; like 3 platefuls a day we talk a lot about.

Eat sulfur-rich vegetables

 

DR. WAHLS: And it should be green leafy. It'd be about a 30 of vegetables, sulfur rich vegetables. And I'm very specific about cabbage family, onion family, mushroom family, because those three families of vegetables interact with our genes in a very special way that helped me process and eliminate toxins more effectively, will help me make cellular enzymes more effectively and will help me make a bunch of the brain biochemical, neurochemistry and brain structures that I need.

LEA: Right. And when, when you were doing your research to kind of figure out what are these foods that I need to be eating to get the nutrients that you were looking at in supplements, it was a lot within these, these vegetables that you found.

DR. WAHLS: Oh, exactly.

DARLENE: So I think Terry, Dr. Terry, maybe just because you know, listeners are listening, but I think maybe go over the sulfur rich vegetables again. I mean, we talk about it, but then you have to think about all the listeners again.

DR. WAHSL: In a very simple way, the stuff that gives you really smelly gas is usually the stuff that has sulfur in it.

DARLENE: Okay; so those would be again?

DR. WAHLS: The cabbage family.

DARLENE: So red cabbage, green cabbage, broccoli.

DR. WAHLS: Radishes, broccoli, turnips, rutabagas, and then the onions, shallots, garlic, chives, and then, mushrooms and all of the edible mushrooms actually have a number of things that are really quite good for us.

DARLENE: You know, and sometimes I think people really have to sit down with a knowledgeable nutritionist or other practitioner to how are you going to include those foods? And I know one of the ways I do it is I put them in soups, you know, and I use the bone broth and then that's a great way to get it in. And you've always got that soup ready to go.

LEA: Exactly.

DR. WAHLS: And in our, in our classes that I teach you here the VA, we spend a fair amount of time cooking with our vets. We also spend a fair amount of time re-imagining what breakfast will look like, re-imagining what our lunches look like. If I'm going to have a snack, what kinds of things can I have? And, I'll tell you, it is a stunner when we tell people, you know, what, if you have bacon from healthy pigs it's actually quite good for you.

LEA: Yeah, right. And tasty.

DR WAHLS: You can get gluten free bacon. And fry up a couple of slices; leave the fat in the skillet, dump in a, you know, a mess of greens.

DARLENE: Right.

DR. WAHLS: Turn off your fire, stir it around a little bit. And then if, if that's not tasty, just add a couple more pieces of bacon next time, because my vets are like, oh my God, that actually does sound good.

DARLENE: Yes.

DR. WAHLS: My, my daughter has a favorite saying which, actually I like a great deal and that is bacon will fix any vegetable mom.

DARLENE: That's kind of one of our sayings too, Terry.

DR. WAHLS: Because it's, some fat saturated, fat really cuts the bitterness for young children. It's the bitterness; it's that alkalinity that makes the vegetables difficult to eat. And when we got this anti-fat craze that took fat out, it made the vegetables far more bitter and much more difficult to introduce into young palettes.

LEA: Yeah. My son will eat anything with bacon.

DARLENE: Yeah. So one of the things, Terry, is that I think, and I want to kind of get back to this because we can talk about all this great food that people should be eating, but then that, that nasty sugar cravings come up and, you know, and what they end up doing is grabbing sugar or something with trans fats. So, and we know that that's inflammatory.

Sugar and addiction

 

DR. WAHLS: Yes. We're, we're all programmed, all of us, to have a craving for sugar. When we eat sugar, sugar, activates the amygdala in our pleasure centers. And if you did a PET scan of me doing cocaine and a PET scan of me having my sugar rush, the same parts of my brain light up. Most of us are addicted to sugar.

DARLENE: Right.

DR. WAHLS: To white flour; and we're also by the way, probably addicted to the protein in many of these ancient grains known as gluten.

DARLENE: Right.

DR. WAHLS: And that gluten can be very inflammatory. And so we, we do talk about food addictions, and that I'd say, you know, if you're going to be successful, you have to treat this like an addiction and get it out of your eating environment.

DARLENE: We talk the same language. We really do, because when I'm talking with people with chronic illness and it's a sugar, it's a sugar addiction, treat it as an addiction. And we kind of know the longer you're away from sugar, flour, gluten, all these trans fats, the cravings seem to decrease; unless you see that product and then your brain goes, and then you want it again.

DR. WAHLS: It’s in your mouth before you know it.

LEA: Right. Right.

DARLENE: But you know, one of the things that I find, and this is it's like when people actually do pull these things out of their diet and they have less symptoms.

LEA: Yes.

DARLENE: You know, if they've got MS and they're less dizzy, wow. That's really powerful. And then they say to themselves, you know, sugar is my enemy. I'm not going to eat it. And that's part of controlling the addiction, I believe. And it seems to help.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: You know, we, we also know if they, we get their intestinal tract balanced better with some good bifido bacteria that they seem to have less cravings. I think we all do a lot of different things to help people with sugar and bad fat cravings.

LEA: Right. Right.

DR. WAHLS: So, helping them, I think one of the most important things; people have to understand why they're going to do this. So they're willing to do the work, experience the withdrawal, have the suffering, get their family on board, because if you're going to take all this food out of your eating environment, that means you got to get everybody in your family willing to have it out of their environment, at least when they're with you.

DARLENE: Exactly.

DR. WAHLS: And so, that's a big challenge, but what I certainly find in my clinical trials and in my clinics, those who have families willing to do that are successful. And, we see, you know, these dramatic health improvements in our, patients in my clinic, in our clinical trial. And we see the family members also often experiencing these dramatic healing stories as well.

DARLENE: You know, one of the things I think Terry is that it becomes something that is going to reduce symptoms. And not just, it's not just one of these weight loss diet things. You know? And so people, so many people are, that's all they that they can think of is nutrition means starvation or something like that. And we're saying more nutrients to heal.

DR. WAHLS: Correct. We want, I tell you if you're hungry, that's fine to eat; just have to eat lots of vegetables and a little bit of meat.

DARLENE: Yeah.

LEA: Exactly.

DR. WAHLS: So if you're hungry yes; eat. My expectation is that you should eat.

LEA: That's right. Well, you know, it's break time again. So we're going to get a short break and get back to our subject today. And you're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition; and how important, we're listening to this show and how important nutrition is when you have MS or other autoimmune conditions.

DARLENE: And before we go on break, I want to thank all my co-hosts and hosts that helped me out for the last month with Dishing Up Nutrition. Yes. It's good to be back today.

LEA: It's good to have you back, Dar.

DARLENE: It was such a blessing to have the other nutritionist take over and they turned out great shows and thank you everyone. I so appreciated it.

LEA: Thanks. We’ll be right back.

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DARLENE: Well, welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. I'm pleased to announce we have scheduled a Menopause Seminar on Saturday, March 19th, from 10:30 to 3:30. If you're looking for a natural way to manage hot flashes, mood swings, insomnia, weight gain, without HRT, hormone replacement therapy, this is a seminar for you. If you're in perimenopause, menopause, or even post-menopause, you will learn valuable information. You know, I'll be teaching along with my co-teacher Kris Kniefel, and we'll even provide an organic lunch and snacks. And so if you're interested, just call our number: (651) 699-3438. And of course you can go on our website, weightandwellness.com. And Lea, we had a great question.

Menopause Survival Seminar

LEA: We did. Yeah. But the caller didn't want to come on the air, but he had a question. He or she had a question.

DARLENE: Yeah, go ahead.

Effects of alcohol and MS

LEA: You want me to, so Dr. Terry Wahls, the question that the caller had was what is the effects of alcohol and MS?

DR. WAHLS: Alcohol is well-known to be toxic to brain cells.

DARLENE: Toxic to brain cells. I love the way you said that.

DR. WAHLS: Now, I would also observe that the epidemiology, however, tells us if you have zero alcohol, your mortality rate is slightly higher than if you have one or two glasses of wine a week.

DARLENE: I really question those.

DR. WAHLS: Well, you know, it’s surprising. No, no, no one has a good explanation for why that is. My advice is if you're comfortable being no alcohol, that's great. If you want to have alcohol, limit it to no more than one or two glasses of wine per week; no more.

DARLENE: And maybe that's the factor, Terry, because it's like, once people start drinking the wine, it doesn't stop with one or two. And so we're really talking about the amount of alcohol people drink and it's, I mean, it has to increase symptoms of MS. There's no question.

DR. WAHLS: Well, I would rather that people do is drink something like kombucha, which is fermented tea. It may have a trace, a tiny, tiny amount of alcohol, and that's going to be okay. And actually that may shift your metabolism so you aren't making any formaldehyde.

DARLENE: Or even Lea's bone broth.

LEA: My bone broth.

DR. WAHLS: Well, I think bone broth is the elixir of the gods. It’s really, really good for us.

DARLENE: So you, know, kind of going back to nutrition. We know that MS or any chronic autoimmune disease is an ongoing health problem.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: We have to eat. We have to continue to eat that will support health and not tear it down, basically.

LEA: Exactly, exactly. So, you know, people may be saying to themselves, really, what is MS? So Terry let's explain about the lesions on the spinal cord and the brain.

What is multiple sclerosis and how does it affect the body?

DR. WAHLS: So, what we know is that people's MS will have acute inflammatory lesions on the brain in the spinal cord that are damaging the brain and spinal cord. These lesions will come and go. If they're there for more than two years, that's not going to go away.

DARLENE: So Terry, I'm going to stop you just there because a lot of listeners have no idea what a lesion is.

DR. WAHLS: Oh, sure. Thank you; a collection of immune cells that are damaging the installation around the nerve cell wiring between cells and that those immune cells are attacking and destroying part of the transmission lines. And sometimes your body's able to heal and repair that and you get your function back. That's called the remission. Things get worse, that's called the relapse.

The vast majority of people are diagnosed in this relapsing remitting phase, but within 10 years, the vast majority will move into the progressive phase, which is where I am, where there's no more spontaneous repair. And there really are no drugs that have been approved and shown to restore function once you're in that progressive phase.

LEA: Right.

DARLENE: There's also another part of MS, which is now getting a lot of attention. And that is the fact that the mitochondria is being damaged. And so there's this steady loss of brain cells, loss of wiring called neurodegeneration.

DARLENE: So again, Terry, again, most people have no idea what mitochondria is. And I know in our, our classes, we just say, it's the inside part of your cells that give you energy.

LEA: Right.

DR. WAHLS: Yeah. A half billion years ago, all life was one cell size.

LEA: Right.

DR. WAHLS: And, when we had an over abundance of oxygen because photosynthesis for the first time, 90% of the bacteria died off. There was a mutation that allowed one bacteria to be able to handle this oxygen very effectively and how it managed to use that oxygen to create energy from the sugar molecules. Those ancient bacteria were swallowed up by bigger bacteria and they developed a very cooperative relationship. So our mitochondria are really these ancient bacteria; mitochondria that allowed us to become multi-cellular and then become animals. And of course, primates and eventually humans. And all of our cells have some of these ancient mitochondria, these ancient bacteria that help us run the energy supply much more efficiently.

LEA: Right.

Healthy fats are critical to support the myelin sheath

DARLENE: Well, Terry, there's a couple of things that I think we should just kind of get to is, and you talked about a little bit with cod liver oil. And we know that omega three fatty acids are, they kind of make up, they help make up that myelin sheath. And so we know that good fats are really important; we believe, at least as nutritionists. And we know that that myelin sheath was often made up of a special kind of an omega three called DHA.

DR. WAHLS: Right. So DHA: Docosahexaenoic acid, EPA: eicosapentaenoic acid. And then the omega six version, arachidonic acid, are all concentrated in our brain, in our myelin, in our eyes. They should be at a ratio with about three arachidonic acids for every single omega three that's EPA or DHA.

DARLENE: For most people, when we, you know, for just general listeners, they, you know, I think it's a good idea to just say, you know, where do you get those? You get those from eating wild caught salmon.

DR. WAHLS: And grass fed meat.

DARLENE: And they actually, they both contain that, that wonderful DHA.

LEA: Yep.

DARLENE: They're a little more expensive to buy, but it's the grass that helps and the algae that help make that DHA.

DR. WAHLS: Yeah. One of the things we, we, you know, cause my patients don't, my folks don't have money. They're, you know, really struggling financially. So we talk about how to make, do this more affordably. So hunting, fishing, gardening, cooking. You have to prepare your own food.

LEA: That's great.

DARLENE: And I think that's the most important part.

DR. WAHLS: So you take, you stop getting food that's harmful for you. Instead of going out for a $4 coffee, you can make your, make your own hot beverages at home and take that, all the food you suspend on your alcohol, your restaurant, your fast food, that becomes your grocery money for buying food and, you know, cooking food, using your Crock-Pot.

LEA: Yes.

DR. WAHLS: My, my vets tell me, this does not have to cost more money, but you do have to cook.

DARLENE: Right, and you're probably saving money on prescriptions. So, so Terry, I'm just watching the clock and we're running out of time. And I want to make sure that people know how to reach you.

DR. WAHLS: So, go to my website, Terrywahls.com. I want to be sure your listeners know that every summer in August, we have a three-day seminar where I teach all these concepts. This year we're going to have a health professional workshop and, for all the listeners who are nutrition experts, and I hope there are many, we're offering a certification program to teach people how to teach others how to use my dietary and lifestyle interventions. And so the certification program would work for nutrition professionals, health and wellness coaches, and of course, physicians and other licensed medical providers, providers like PAs, NPs, and chiropractors.

DARLENE: Yeah. I think introducing a lot of different people to this concept that the nutrition, the food that you eat is so critical for any kind of autoimmune disease. And wherever that happens is great I think.

LEA: And your book too; what is the name of your book?

DR. WAHLS: So the name of the book is the Wahls protocol. My website is Terrywahls, T E R R Y wahls, W A H L s.com. I'm on Facebook: Terry Wahls, MD and on Twitter, Terry Wahls.

LEA: Awesome. That's great.

DARLENE: So everyone, thank you for listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. You know, if you found this show valuable, please share it with a friend or a family member. Our message each week is how eating real food supports your health. It's a simple message, but powerful message. Be sure to tune in next week to listen to Kara, Kate and Marcie discuss perimenopause and answer the question. Am I too young to have menopausal symptoms?

LEA: And we want to thank you again, Terry, for being on the show with us today. We really appreciate you joining us.

DARLENE: And thank you. We loved your presentation.

LEA: Great job.

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